[pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

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[pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

peter royal
I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer  
behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built  
upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on  
bringing the project to the ASF.

I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/ 
AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in  
helping flesh it out.

I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many  
projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,  
and I would also like to see some collaboration with the  
HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.


thanks!

-pete

--
[hidden email] - http://fotap.org/~osi





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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

tcurdt
On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
> bringing the project to the ASF.
>
> I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
> helping flesh it out.
>
> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
> HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.

Sounds good to me!

cheers
--
Torsten

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

dims
In reply to this post by peter royal
Peter,

Can you please ping the Jakarta HttpComponents folks? see what they think?

thanks,
dims

On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
> bringing the project to the ASF.
>
> I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
> helping flesh it out.
>
> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
> HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.
>
>
> thanks!
>
> -pete
>
> --
> [hidden email] - http://fotap.org/~osi
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

peter royal
On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> Can you please ping the Jakarta HttpComponents folks? see what they  
> think?

done! (cc'd here as its a good place for common discussion)

-pete

--
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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

dims
awesome! thanks.

-- dims

On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Jul 12, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Davanum Srinivas wrote:
> > Can you please ping the Jakarta HttpComponents folks? see what they
> > think?
>
> done! (cc'd here as its a good place for common discussion)
>
> -pete
>
> --
> [hidden email] - http://fotap.org/~osi
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Davanum Srinivas : http://www.wso2.net (Oxygen for Web Service Developers)

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Justin Erenkrantz
In reply to this post by peter royal
On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
> bringing the project to the ASF.
>
> I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
> helping flesh it out.
>
> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
> HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.

It almost sounds like this would be a good candidate for a software
grant instead of meriting a full incubation.  How large of a community
is around AsyncWeb?  From the proposal, it sounds just like one
committer - so as long as the IP clearance paperwork is filed, it
could go right into MINA.  See:

http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html

As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)

That said, I'd be happy to join in on any efforts here (mentor,
committer, user, whatever) - even though I'm a lowly C programmer.  As
you may recall, Greg and I have written an async HTTP engine in C
called Serf (http://svn.webdav.org/repos/projects/serf/trunk/) that is
built on top of APR plus Subversion can now use it.  So, I've a little
bit (ha!) of experience with writing these types of frameworks.  I've
been wondering how the async engine would look like in Java, so this
might be a good chance to get my hands dirty there.

Good luck!  -- justin

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Yoav Shapira-2
Hi,
You might also want to CC Filip Hanik, [hidden email], on this
idea.  Filip has been busily working on a NIO HTTP implementation for
Tomcat, and has a working version.  We've seen some quirky performance
out of it.  But that's besides the point: I think he might be
interested in this, at least as an observer, besides having some
practical tips and possibly code to share.

Yoav

On 7/12/06, Justin Erenkrantz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
> > behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
> > upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
> > bringing the project to the ASF.
> >
> > I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
> > AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
> > helping flesh it out.
> >
> > I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
> > projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
> > and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
> > HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.
>
> It almost sounds like this would be a good candidate for a software
> grant instead of meriting a full incubation.  How large of a community
> is around AsyncWeb?  From the proposal, it sounds just like one
> committer - so as long as the IP clearance paperwork is filed, it
> could go right into MINA.  See:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>
> As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
> Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)
>
> That said, I'd be happy to join in on any efforts here (mentor,
> committer, user, whatever) - even though I'm a lowly C programmer.  As
> you may recall, Greg and I have written an async HTTP engine in C
> called Serf (http://svn.webdav.org/repos/projects/serf/trunk/) that is
> built on top of APR plus Subversion can now use it.  So, I've a little
> bit (ha!) of experience with writing these types of frameworks.  I've
> been wondering how the async engine would look like in Java, so this
> might be a good chance to get my hands dirty there.
>
> Good luck!  -- justin
>
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>


--
Yoav Shapira
Nimalex LLC
1 Mifflin Place, Suite 310
Cambridge, MA, USA
[hidden email] / www.yoavshapira.com

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

peter royal
On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:24 AM, Yoav Shapira wrote:
> You might also want to CC Filip Hanik, [hidden email], on this
> idea.  Filip has been busily working on a NIO HTTP implementation for
> Tomcat, and has a working version.  We've seen some quirky performance
> out of it.  But that's besides the point: I think he might be
> interested in this, at least as an observer, besides having some
> practical tips and possibly code to share.

excellent, thanks for the tip. Didn't realize he did their HTTP impl  
as well. I've been talking with him about using MINA as the base for  
the NIO bits in Tribes/groupcom for Tomcat.


-pete

--
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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Dave Irving
In reply to this post by Yoav Shapira-2
Yoav Shapira-2 wrote
Hi,
You might also want to CC Filip Hanik, fhanik@apache.org, on this
idea.  Filip has been busily working on a NIO HTTP implementation for
Tomcat, and has a working version.  We've seen some quirky performance
out of it.  But that's besides the point: I think he might be
interested in this, at least as an observer, besides having some
practical tips and possibly code to share.

Yoav
I found that the usage scenarios for an async http server tended to be slightly different than for (say) a web app server.

My particular example was in a web services context: Web service invocations were received over HTTP to my server, and I had to contact an external system (independent request / response web service request) before I could respond to the original client request. This system was an external multimedia messaging centre - and this external response time was in the 2 - 10 second range.

In this scenario, "out and out" performance of the web server was not the main issue in this context (each request would ultimately have at least a 2 - 10 second latency). The main issue was scalability.
In a thread per connection model (e.g. servlet model), my overall server throughput was limited to (and proportional to) the response time of the external system.

This (in my case) was solved by introducing an http transport which had asynchronous response support (in my case, asyncweb).


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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Thomas Dudziak
In reply to this post by Yoav Shapira-2
On 7/12/06, Yoav Shapira <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You might also want to CC Filip Hanik, [hidden email], on this
> idea.  Filip has been busily working on a NIO HTTP implementation for
> Tomcat, and has a working version.  We've seen some quirky performance
> out of it.  But that's besides the point: I think he might be
> interested in this, at least as an observer, besides having some
> practical tips and possibly code to share.

Along these lines, it would also make sense to ping Greg Wilkins
(jetty) as he's already done some NIO work for Jetty ? I could ping
him if you want ?

Tom

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

peter royal
On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:52 AM, Thomas Dudziak wrote:

> On 7/12/06, Yoav Shapira <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> You might also want to CC Filip Hanik, [hidden email], on this
>> idea.  Filip has been busily working on a NIO HTTP implementation for
>> Tomcat, and has a working version.  We've seen some quirky  
>> performance
>> out of it.  But that's besides the point: I think he might be
>> interested in this, at least as an observer, besides having some
>> practical tips and possibly code to share.
>
> Along these lines, it would also make sense to ping Greg Wilkins
> (jetty) as he's already done some NIO work for Jetty ? I could ping
> him if you want ?
Sure!

But do keep in mind, AsyncWeb is not a servlet container.. but I'm  
sure there's still bits to be shared, all the work the container does  
before having to dedicate a thread.

-pete


--
[hidden email] - http://fotap.org/~osi




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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Thomas Dudziak
> Sure!
>
> But do keep in mind, AsyncWeb is not a servlet container.. but I'm
> sure there's still bits to be shared, all the work the container does
> before having to dedicate a thread.

exactly, and I'm sure that Greg would be interested, if not in the
code, then at least in sharing info about NIO pitfalls and stuff. I'll
ping the jetty list.

Tom

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RE: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Noel J. Bergman
In reply to this post by Justin Erenkrantz
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
> Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)

It is there because MINA was written to implement ApacheDS.  It is the ...
third, I believe ... generation I/O framework used in that project.

And, yes, we've been talking for a while about splitting it out.  Efforts
started up recently to put a proposal before the Board.

        --- Noel


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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Justin Erenkrantz
On 7/12/06, Noel J. Bergman <[hidden email]> wrote:
> And, yes, we've been talking for a while about splitting it out.  Efforts
> started up recently to put a proposal before the Board.

I look forward to seeing that proposal then.  =)  -- justin

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Jerome Louvel-2
In reply to this post by peter royal

Hi all,

As users of AsyncWeb in our Restlet project (http://www.restlet.org), we
are interested in seeing it join the ASF and consolidating its efforts
with both MINA and HttpComponents NIO.

We have a Restlet API that we are planning to submit to the JCP next
year and that is a RESTful alternative to the Servlet API. In particular
it has full provision for asynchronous calls, client-side and
server-side applications, and NIO-based representations (via an
org.restlet.data.Representation interface that can expose the same
content as either BIO streams or NIO channels).

Currently, we provide several HTTP server connectors derived from the
following projects: Jetty 5, Jetty 6, AsyncWeb 0.8 and Simple framework 3.1.

We have also considered the development of a custom HTTP server
connector that would be directly based on MINA and optimized for our
Restlet API: preventing any conversion from, for example, AsyncWeb HTTP
request/response objects to Restlet call objects.

So, we are interested in contributing to the AsyncWeb and MINA
consolidation efforts, and in having even more common ground with those
projects than today.

Thanks,
Jerome


peter royal wrote :

> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on bringing
> the project to the ASF.
>
> I've started a proposal at
> <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from
> others would be appreciated in helping flesh it out.
>
> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the HttpComponents
> project on their HttpNIO efforts.


--
Jerome Louvel
http://www.restlet.org


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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Jim Jagielski
In reply to this post by Justin Erenkrantz

On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:

> On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
>> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
>> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
>> bringing the project to the ASF.
>>
>> I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>> AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
>> helping flesh it out.
>>
>> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
>> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
>> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
>> HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.
>
> It almost sounds like this would be a good candidate for a software
> grant instead of meriting a full incubation.  How large of a community
> is around AsyncWeb?  From the proposal, it sounds just like one
> committer - so as long as the IP clearance paperwork is filed, it
> could go right into MINA.  See:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>

I know that a few ApacheDS guys have also done some
work on it as well.

> As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
> Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)
>

MINA is expected to propose a move to TLP soon... MINA
started off as a framework for ApacheDS and has grown into
its own very cool codebase.

I'd like to help here as well.



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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Mladen Turk-3
Jim Jagielski wrote:
>
>
> MINA is expected to propose a move to TLP soon... MINA
> started off as a framework for ApacheDS and has grown into
> its own very cool codebase.
>
> I'd like to help here as well.
>

If that happens, I'm willing to help as well.

Although I'm not a huge fun of NIO in Servlet
container, for the reasons I don't wish to
elaborate here, a target project could be very
cool to have.
It would certainly give us ASF http server
that comes as part of Java6.

Regards,
Mladen.

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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Alex Karasulu-4
In reply to this post by Jim Jagielski
Jim Jagielski wrote:

>
> On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
>
>> On 7/12/06, peter royal <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> I have been talking with Dave Irving who is the principal developer
>>> behind AsyncWeb, <http://asyncweb.safehaus.org>, an HTTP engine built
>>> upon MINA <http://directory.apache.org/subprojects/mina/>, on
>>> bringing the project to the ASF.
>>>
>>> I've started a proposal at <http://wiki.apache.org/incubator/
>>> AsyncWebProposal>, assistance from others would be appreciated in
>>> helping flesh it out.
>>>
>>> I think this would be a good addition to the ASF, as there are many
>>> projects that can benefit from a Java-based non-blocking HTTP server,
>>> and I would also like to see some collaboration with the
>>> HttpComponents project on their HttpNIO efforts.
>>
>> It almost sounds like this would be a good candidate for a software
>> grant instead of meriting a full incubation.  How large of a community
>> is around AsyncWeb?  From the proposal, it sounds just like one
>> committer - so as long as the IP clearance paperwork is filed, it
>> could go right into MINA.  See:
>>
>> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html
>>
>
> I know that a few ApacheDS guys have also done some
> work on it as well.

Right it's mostly Dave Irving of course, Trustin Lee, Dan Diephouse, and
myself on it.  So there is community around it but it overlaps.

>> As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
>> Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)
>>
>
> MINA is expected to propose a move to TLP soon... MINA
> started off as a framework for ApacheDS and has grown into
> its own very cool codebase.

MINA had an interesting history.  It's basically a combination of
Trustin's older Netty2 and concepts we were working on here at Directory
when experimenting with SEDA and the notion of protocol codecs.

ApacheDS is a bit of a misnomer since it supports more than just LDAP
with a bunch of plugable protocols like Kerberos and DNS that all back
their data within the LDAP directory.  As you can see we quickly needed
a framework that could support all these needs.

Alex



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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

Dave Irving
In reply to this post by Mladen Turk-3
mturk wrote
If that happens, I'm willing to help as well.

Although I'm not a huge fun of NIO in Servlet
container, for the reasons I don't wish to
elaborate here, a target project could be very
cool to have.
It would certainly give us ASF http server
that comes as part of Java6.

Regards,
Mladen.
its great to see that several people appear to be interested in getting involved with asyncweb. Certainly in the last few months there seems to  be a growing interest in async http handling (jetty6, and now glassfish) - and I think it would be cool to bring an open minded project in this exciting area to the ASF (of course, IMHO).


Dave
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Re: [pre-proposal] AsyncWeb

peter royal
In reply to this post by Justin Erenkrantz
On Jul 12, 2006, at 11:19 AM, Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
> It almost sounds like this would be a good candidate for a software
> grant instead of meriting a full incubation.  How large of a community
> is around AsyncWeb?  From the proposal, it sounds just like one
> committer - so as long as the IP clearance paperwork is filed, it
> could go right into MINA.  See:
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/ip-clearance/index.html

good point, thanks for the suggestion!

dave, do you hold full copyright to put you in a position to make a  
grant?

> As an aside, I'm also a bit befuddled at why MINA lives in the
> Directory project - that just seems a bit odd.  =)

we're working on that :)

> That said, I'd be happy to join in on any efforts here (mentor,
> committer, user, whatever) - even though I'm a lowly C programmer.  As
> you may recall, Greg and I have written an async HTTP engine in C
...
> I've been wondering how the async engine would look like in Java,  
> so this
> might be a good chance to get my hands dirty there.

we would love to have you help out / pay attention.. i'm sure there  
are common lessons learned in doing async http regardless of the  
language

-pete


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