[doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

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[doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Jean T. Anderson
Given recent PPMC discussions on general@, it has been on my mind to add a
section titled "Voting in a new PPMC member" to
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html

Brian McCallister and I chatted about this at the hackathon. Since having
a PPMC is instructional, we think that it would be helpful for PPMCs to
mimic the PMC process to get in the right habit.

So, given what a PMC does:
 - vote in a new candidate
 - ask for board acknowledgement ([hidden email])
 - invite the new candidate to join the PMC

The suggested PPMC habit would be:
 - vote in a new candidate
 - ask for Incubator PMC acknowledgement ([hidden email])
   (I'll volunteer to look for and ack requests)
 - invite the new candidate to join the PPMC

Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
 - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
 - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC when
the podling graduates

suggestions? Once this idea is fleshed out, I'll add wording to
http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html .

thanks,

 -jean



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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Craig L Russell
Hi Jean,

Your suggestion looks sound to me.

Craig

On Oct 10, 2006, at 12:10 PM, Jean T. Anderson wrote:

> Given recent PPMC discussions on general@, it has been on my mind  
> to add a
> section titled "Voting in a new PPMC member" to
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>
> Brian McCallister and I chatted about this at the hackathon. Since  
> having
> a PPMC is instructional, we think that it would be helpful for  
> PPMCs to
> mimic the PMC process to get in the right habit.
>
> So, given what a PMC does:
>  - vote in a new candidate
>  - ask for board acknowledgement ([hidden email])
>  - invite the new candidate to join the PMC
>
> The suggested PPMC habit would be:
>  - vote in a new candidate
>  - ask for Incubator PMC acknowledgement  
> ([hidden email])
>    (I'll volunteer to look for and ack requests)
>  - invite the new candidate to join the PPMC
>
> Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
>  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
>  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC  
> when
> the podling graduates
>
> suggestions? Once this idea is fleshed out, I'll add wording to
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html .
>
> thanks,
>
>  -jean
>
>
>
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Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

robert burrell donkin-2
On 10/10/06, Craig L Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Jean,
>
> Your suggestion looks sound to me.

+1

> > Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
> >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification

i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
official committees. IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not
publically written down anywhere and a little more ceremony and
documentation would be required before i find this convincing in
practice. may be necessary to go through the records...

> >  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC
> > when the podling graduates

IMHO in theory, this is a matter for the board which they delegate to
the incubator PMC. in practice i think that the PPMC will become the
PMC.

what would be very useful are some guides about what a PMC is and what
it isn't. something along the lines that the pmc should only act in an
official capacity when that's absolutely required which is mostly
process stuff. didn't come up with a form of wording that i found
satisfactory. be very happy if docathoners came up with suitable
content :-)

- robert

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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Andrus Adamchik

On Oct 10, 2006, at 4:20 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

> in practice i think that the PPMC will become the PMC.

Sans the mentors who signed up to help with incubation, but no intent  
to participate in project development.

Andrus


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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Jean T. Anderson
In reply to this post by robert burrell donkin-2
> On 10/10/06, Craig L Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi Jean,
>>
>> Your suggestion looks sound to me.
>
> +1
>
>> > Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
>> >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
>
> i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
> official committees. IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not
> publically written down anywhere and a little more ceremony and
> documentation would be required before i find this convincing in
> practice. may be necessary to go through the records...

If PPMCs have official status, then wouldn't new additions require board
approval?

>> >  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC
>> > when the podling graduates
>
> IMHO in theory, this is a matter for the board which they delegate to
> the incubator PMC. in practice i think that the PPMC will become the
> PMC.

But a PPMC member shouldn't count on that. When a podling graduates to a
TLP, the board will need to approve the PMC list, right? And if a podling
graduates into a subproject of a TLP, it is up to that TLP's PMC to invite
members to become apart of it.

> what would be very useful are some guides about what a PMC is and what
> it isn't. something along the lines that the pmc should only act in an
> official capacity when that's absolutely required which is mostly
> process stuff. didn't come up with a form of wording that i found
> satisfactory. be very happy if docathoners came up with suitable
> content :-)

how much of the general PMC wording is covered by  (or needs to be tweaked
in) http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc ?

docathoners -- I'm at the far table at 10:00 when you come in the
hackathon door.  :-) Somebody mentioned that Robert put up a docathoner
sign in Dublin. I should have been as well organized.

 -jean

>
> - robert
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>



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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

robert burrell donkin-2
On 10/10/06, Jean T. Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > On 10/10/06, Craig L Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> Hi Jean,
> >>
> >> Your suggestion looks sound to me.
> >
> > +1
> >
> >> > Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
> >> >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
> >
> > i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
> > official committees. IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not
> > publically written down anywhere and a little more ceremony and
> > documentation would be required before i find this convincing in
> > practice. may be necessary to go through the records...
>
> If PPMCs have official status, then wouldn't new additions require board
> approval?

yes but probably only an ack would be required (since it would be
within the powers delegated by the charter). but AIUI even this isn't
happening ATM. IMO the current ceremony associated is not sufficient
if they are committees.

IMO their status urgently needs to be sorted out

> >> >  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC
> >> > when the podling graduates
> >
> > IMHO in theory, this is a matter for the board which they delegate to
> > the incubator PMC. in practice i think that the PPMC will become the
> > PMC.
>
> But a PPMC member shouldn't count on that. When a podling graduates to a
> TLP, the board will need to approve the PMC list, right?

yes

> And if a podling
> graduates into a subproject of a TLP, it is up to that TLP's PMC to invite
> members to become apart of it.

yes

> > what would be very useful are some guides about what a PMC is and what
> > it isn't. something along the lines that the pmc should only act in an
> > official capacity when that's absolutely required which is mostly
> > process stuff. didn't come up with a form of wording that i found
> > satisfactory. be very happy if docathoners came up with suitable
> > content :-)
>
> how much of the general PMC wording is covered by  (or needs to be tweaked
> in) http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc ?

it's a bit of a mish-mash of tips and process

i was hoping for something more like guidance to help people new to
apache to understand how PMCs work from organisational, philosophical
and practical perspectives

- robert

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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Craig L Russell
It seems to me that there is no reason for the PPMC to be official,  
since they have no power to actually release anything (which puts  
Apache at legal risk). It's the Incubator PMC that authorizes releases.

"All the PPMC does" is to exercise podling oversight, which should  
not legally encumber Apache.

Craig

On Oct 10, 2006, at 2:16 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:

> On 10/10/06, Jean T. Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 10/10/06, Craig L Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> >> Hi Jean,
>> >>
>> >> Your suggestion looks sound to me.
>> >
>> > +1
>> >
>> >> > Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
>> >> >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board  
>> notification
>> >
>> > i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
>> > official committees. IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not
>> > publically written down anywhere and a little more ceremony and
>> > documentation would be required before i find this convincing in
>> > practice. may be necessary to go through the records...
>>
>> If PPMCs have official status, then wouldn't new additions require  
>> board
>> approval?
>
> yes but probably only an ack would be required (since it would be
> within the powers delegated by the charter). but AIUI even this isn't
> happening ATM. IMO the current ceremony associated is not sufficient
> if they are committees.
>
> IMO their status urgently needs to be sorted out
>
>> >> >  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on  
>> the PMC
>> >> > when the podling graduates
>> >
>> > IMHO in theory, this is a matter for the board which they  
>> delegate to
>> > the incubator PMC. in practice i think that the PPMC will become  
>> the
>> > PMC.
>>
>> But a PPMC member shouldn't count on that. When a podling  
>> graduates to a
>> TLP, the board will need to approve the PMC list, right?
>
> yes
>
>> And if a podling
>> graduates into a subproject of a TLP, it is up to that TLP's PMC  
>> to invite
>> members to become apart of it.
>
> yes
>
>> > what would be very useful are some guides about what a PMC is  
>> and what
>> > it isn't. something along the lines that the pmc should only act  
>> in an
>> > official capacity when that's absolutely required which is mostly
>> > process stuff. didn't come up with a form of wording that i found
>> > satisfactory. be very happy if docathoners came up with suitable
>> > content :-)
>>
>> how much of the general PMC wording is covered by  (or needs to be  
>> tweaked
>> in) http://www.apache.org/dev/#pmc ?
>
> it's a bit of a mish-mash of tips and process
>
> i was hoping for something more like guidance to help people new to
> apache to understand how PMCs work from organisational, philosophical
> and practical perspectives
>
> - robert
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

William A Rowe Jr
Craig L Russell wrote:
> It seems to me that there is no reason for the PPMC to be official,
> since they have no power to actually release anything (which puts Apache
> at legal risk). It's the Incubator PMC that authorizes releases.
>
> "All the PPMC does" is to exercise podling oversight, which should not
> legally encumber Apache.

Although the Incubator PMC *can* ratify any PPMC-level decision, which is why
things like adding a committer need to be forwarded to [hidden email] - even
if we accept the PPMC decision by lazy consensus (without a confirming vote)
we've implicitly accepted the decision unless we inform the project otherwise.

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RE: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Noel J. Bergman
In reply to this post by Jean T. Anderson
Jean T. Anderson wrote:
> The suggested PPMC habit would be:
>  - vote in a new candidate

Notify the Incubator PMC of the ongoing vote.

>  - ask for Incubator PMC acknowledgement ([hidden email])

Actually, IMO all that we really want is a notice, since the prior notice
(above) would have allowed all Incubator PMC members to cast a vote as
desired.

> Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
>  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification

And hence the need for Incubator PMC involvement.

> - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC when
> the podling graduates

That decision is made by the Board when a TLP is created, or by an existing
PMC when a project leaves the Incubator into an existing TLP.

        --- Noel



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RE: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Noel J. Bergman
In reply to this post by robert burrell donkin-2
robert burrell donkin wrote:

> > >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification

> i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
> official committees.

IMO, he's wrong.  The Incubator PMC is the sole body recognized by the ASF's
legal structure.  The only authority exercised by a PPMC is by virtue of
Incubator PMC member votes, which is why I encourage all PPMCs to have at
least 3 active Incubator PMC members.

> > IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not publically written
> down anywhere and a little more ceremony and documentation would
> be required before i find this convincing in practice. may be
> necessary to go through the records...

It is reasonable to document, but the policy is not an Incubator policy.  It
is derived directly from our bylaws.  The PPMC is an Incubator artifact.

        --- Noel



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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Garrett Rooney
In reply to this post by Jean T. Anderson
On 10/10/06, Jean T. Anderson <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Given recent PPMC discussions on general@, it has been on my mind to add a
> section titled "Voting in a new PPMC member" to
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html
>
> Brian McCallister and I chatted about this at the hackathon. Since having
> a PPMC is instructional, we think that it would be helpful for PPMCs to
> mimic the PMC process to get in the right habit.
>
> So, given what a PMC does:
>  - vote in a new candidate
>  - ask for board acknowledgement ([hidden email])
>  - invite the new candidate to join the PMC
>
> The suggested PPMC habit would be:
>  - vote in a new candidate
>  - ask for Incubator PMC acknowledgement ([hidden email])
>    (I'll volunteer to look for and ack requests)
>  - invite the new candidate to join the PPMC
>
> Some clarifications are needed on the PPMC page, including:
>  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
>  - membership on the PPMC does not guarantee membership on the PMC when
> the podling graduates
>
> suggestions? Once this idea is fleshed out, I'll add wording to
> http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html .

On a sort of related note, are the membership lists of the various
PPMCs actually documented anywhere?  I mean is there a PPMC version of
committee-info.txt like there is for PMCs?

-garrett

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RE: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Noel J. Bergman
Garrett Rooney asked:

> are the membership lists of the various PPMCs actually documented
anywhere?

They SHOULD be in the status file, but generally are not.  Coincidentally, I
had this very discussion with David Reid earlier in the week, and am looking
forward to seeing his proposal for managing Incubator meta-data.

        --- Noel



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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

William A Rowe Jr
In reply to this post by Garrett Rooney
Garrett Rooney wrote:
>
> On a sort of related note, are the membership lists of the various
> PPMCs actually documented anywhere?  I mean is there a PPMC version of
> committee-info.txt like there is for PMCs?

Hopefully projects are maintaining their root status files with this info

http://incubator.apache.org/projects/xxxx.html

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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

Garrett Rooney
On 10/12/06, William A. Rowe, Jr. <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Garrett Rooney wrote:
> >
> > On a sort of related note, are the membership lists of the various
> > PPMCs actually documented anywhere?  I mean is there a PPMC version of
> > committee-info.txt like there is for PMCs?
>
> Hopefully projects are maintaining their root status files with this info
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/projects/xxxx.html

Every project I've looked at there lists committers and mentors, but
not PPMC members.  Now considering that we've been saying just
recently that not every committer starts out on the PPMC, doesn't that
indicate that we should have a specific list someplace for that?  Or
is it just that we should have such a thing, but none of the podlings
(abdera, lokahi, cxf, cayenne) I happened to look at have one?

-garrett

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Re: [doc] "How to add a PPMC member"

robert burrell donkin-2
In reply to this post by Noel J. Bergman
On 10/12/06, Noel J. Bergman <[hidden email]> wrote:

> robert burrell donkin wrote:
>
> > > >  - the PPMC has no legal standing, so no need for board notification
>
> > i'm not sure about this. roy seems very convinced that PPMCs are
> > official committees.
>
> IMO, he's wrong.  The Incubator PMC is the sole body recognized by the ASF's
> legal structure.  The only authority exercised by a PPMC is by virtue of
> Incubator PMC member votes, which is why I encourage all PPMCs to have at
> least 3 active Incubator PMC members.
>
> > > IMO this policy seems reasonable but it's not publically written
> > down anywhere and a little more ceremony and documentation would
> > be required before i find this convincing in practice. may be
> > necessary to go through the records...
>
> It is reasonable to document,

IMO all undocumented policies are dubious. all policies should be documented.

> but the policy is not an Incubator policy.

roy implied that there's a positive policy vote on file about this.
before my time so someone would need to trawl the records to check
whether this is an official (but undocumented) policy.

- robert

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