Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

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Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Archit Shah
The project formerly known as Blaze changed its name to Glasgow based on
previous feedback and decided to follow Apache precedent (e.g. Tuscany).
Apparently there are strong objections to this precendent. In our
discussions, the group did come up with some ingenious names for the
project, but most had legal concerns or conflicted with existing
software. Glasgow was the winner mostly by process of elimination.

Danny, I'm confident that none of the committers are particularly
attached to the name and no one wants to see the proposal sidetracked
over the name of the project. So, we welcome any help in selecting a
name that does not have any software trademarks in the USPTO and isn't
connected to other relevant software projects.

  -- Archit

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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Danny Angus-2
Archit,

I'm very happy to here you say so, I certainly don't want to affect
your progress through the incubator, in many ways I've unfairly sigled
you out as an example of a prectice I feel strongly about.

Unfortunately I will be away, offline, for the next four days, but if
it is still relevant I will be happy to take up your kind offer and
put in time helping to find an acceptable, strike that, a good name.

d.

On 04/08/06, Archit Shah <[hidden email]> wrote:

> The project formerly known as Blaze changed its name to Glasgow based on
> previous feedback and decided to follow Apache precedent (e.g. Tuscany).
> Apparently there are strong objections to this precendent. In our
> discussions, the group did come up with some ingenious names for the
> project, but most had legal concerns or conflicted with existing
> software. Glasgow was the winner mostly by process of elimination.
>
> Danny, I'm confident that none of the committers are particularly
> attached to the name and no one wants to see the proposal sidetracked
> over the name of the project. So, we welcome any help in selecting a
> name that does not have any software trademarks in the USPTO and isn't
> connected to other relevant software projects.
>
>   -- Archit
>

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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Martin van den Bemt
Also if I recall correctly, naming issues can also be solved while in the incbuator... (like
adffaces has)

Mvgr,
Martin

Danny Angus wrote:

> Archit,
>
> I'm very happy to here you say so, I certainly don't want to affect
> your progress through the incubator, in many ways I've unfairly sigled
> you out as an example of a prectice I feel strongly about.
>
> Unfortunately I will be away, offline, for the next four days, but if
> it is still relevant I will be happy to take up your kind offer and
> put in time helping to find an acceptable, strike that, a good name.
>
> d.
>
> On 04/08/06, Archit Shah <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> The project formerly known as Blaze changed its name to Glasgow based on
>> previous feedback and decided to follow Apache precedent (e.g. Tuscany).
>> Apparently there are strong objections to this precendent. In our
>> discussions, the group did come up with some ingenious names for the
>> project, but most had legal concerns or conflicted with existing
>> software. Glasgow was the winner mostly by process of elimination.
>>
>> Danny, I'm confident that none of the committers are particularly
>> attached to the name and no one wants to see the proposal sidetracked
>> over the name of the project. So, we welcome any help in selecting a
>> name that does not have any software trademarks in the USPTO and isn't
>> connected to other relevant software projects.
>>
>>   -- Archit
>>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
>

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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Matthias Wessendorf-4
Martin-

yes we solved it recently. But... the process of solving that is not
quite clear. I created an issue / task in JIRA for that.

I am only refering to the trademark issue; the rest was pretty easy,
the community voted on the name. We only ensured that no names with
*potential* trademark troubles we available in the vote. We collected
the names with a JIRA ticket :-)

-Matthias

On 8/4/06, Martin van den Bemt <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Also if I recall correctly, naming issues can also be solved while in the incbuator... (like
> adffaces has)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> Danny Angus wrote:
> > Archit,
> >
> > I'm very happy to here you say so, I certainly don't want to affect
> > your progress through the incubator, in many ways I've unfairly sigled
> > you out as an example of a prectice I feel strongly about.
> >
> > Unfortunately I will be away, offline, for the next four days, but if
> > it is still relevant I will be happy to take up your kind offer and
> > put in time helping to find an acceptable, strike that, a good name.
> >
> > d.
> >
> > On 04/08/06, Archit Shah <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> The project formerly known as Blaze changed its name to Glasgow based on
> >> previous feedback and decided to follow Apache precedent (e.g. Tuscany).
> >> Apparently there are strong objections to this precendent. In our
> >> discussions, the group did come up with some ingenious names for the
> >> project, but most had legal concerns or conflicted with existing
> >> software. Glasgow was the winner mostly by process of elimination.
> >>
> >> Danny, I'm confident that none of the committers are particularly
> >> attached to the name and no one wants to see the proposal sidetracked
> >> over the name of the project. So, we welcome any help in selecting a
> >> name that does not have any software trademarks in the USPTO and isn't
> >> connected to other relevant software projects.
> >>
> >>   -- Archit
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
>
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--
Matthias Wessendorf

further stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com

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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Sanjiva Weerawarana
In reply to this post by Martin van den Bemt
IMO the reason this naming debate hasn't been settled is because of the
way in which the change from Blaze to Glasgow was achieved: it was done
privately and the result was announced here.

I can imagine how frustrating this must be to folks who are new to
Apache, but folks here don't like private stuff. If you come here you
must be willing to open your kimono all the way, not just let us take a
peek thru a small crack. An example was the Ajax proposal .. the name
got rejected and we had a public debate here and created Kabuki (which
of course proceeded to have a failure to launch but that's another
movie).

In any case, if there are naming issues we can certainly deal with them
during incubation and simply make it a graduation criteria to come up
with a better name. I can see why marketing types will get upset by that
but again educating the marketing community to deal with the Apache Way
is a requirement to survive here too :-). The PRC folks will take the
sledge hammer on that one!

We're *such* a whacky bunch.

Sanjiva.

On Sat, 2006-08-05 at 00:41 +0200, Martin van den Bemt wrote:

> Also if I recall correctly, naming issues can also be solved while in the incbuator... (like
> adffaces has)
>
> Mvgr,
> Martin
>
> Danny Angus wrote:
> > Archit,
> >
> > I'm very happy to here you say so, I certainly don't want to affect
> > your progress through the incubator, in many ways I've unfairly sigled
> > you out as an example of a prectice I feel strongly about.
> >
> > Unfortunately I will be away, offline, for the next four days, but if
> > it is still relevant I will be happy to take up your kind offer and
> > put in time helping to find an acceptable, strike that, a good name.
> >
> > d.
> >
> > On 04/08/06, Archit Shah <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >> The project formerly known as Blaze changed its name to Glasgow based on
> >> previous feedback and decided to follow Apache precedent (e.g. Tuscany).
> >> Apparently there are strong objections to this precendent. In our
> >> discussions, the group did come up with some ingenious names for the
> >> project, but most had legal concerns or conflicted with existing
> >> software. Glasgow was the winner mostly by process of elimination.
> >>
> >> Danny, I'm confident that none of the committers are particularly
> >> attached to the name and no one wants to see the proposal sidetracked
> >> over the name of the project. So, we welcome any help in selecting a
> >> name that does not have any software trademarks in the USPTO and isn't
> >> connected to other relevant software projects.
> >>
> >>   -- Archit
> >>
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
> >
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

robert burrell donkin-2
On 8/5/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <[hidden email]> wrote:
> IMO the reason this naming debate hasn't been settled is because of the
> way in which the change from Blaze to Glasgow was achieved: it was done
> privately and the result was announced here.

+1

> I can imagine how frustrating this must be to folks who are new to
> Apache, but folks here don't like private stuff. If you come here you
> must be willing to open your kimono all the way, not just let us take a
> peek thru a small crack. An example was the Ajax proposal .. the name
> got rejected and we had a public debate here and created Kabuki (which
> of course proceeded to have a failure to launch but that's another
> movie).

+1

> In any case, if there are naming issues we can certainly deal with them
> during incubation and simply make it a graduation criteria to come up
> with a better name. I can see why marketing types will get upset by that
> but again educating the marketing community to deal with the Apache Way
> is a requirement to survive here too :-). The PRC folks will take the
> sledge hammer on that one!

IMO good names for open source projects are very different from good
names for commercial products. marketing types will talk about postive
and negative associations. for open source projects, the more unique
the name the better. it's better for everyone if downstream commercial
vendors create their own good marketing names and leave us to pick
something unique.

as a not-for-profit, apache has different priorities. ethics is
definitely important. as a gorilla, we should be careful to aviod
throwing our weight around unfairly.

legal considerations are also important. trademarks are a vital tool
in enforcing key apache policies. without decent uniqueness, we lose
some control. we also really want to avoid being sued for trademark
enfringement. infringing a trademark would mean (at the very least)
having to close the project.

i think that danny's right that we need to do something about the
problem of naming. it's causing too many unnecessary issues. as a
first step, i'll try to find some time tomorrow to add some
documentation about naming to the entry guide so at least folks
understand that we are likely to be sensitive to this issue.

> We're *such* a whacky bunch.

that's true enough :-)

given the amount of upset caused by names, i think that we should
appoint sanjiva as chief-name-wangler. his role would be to seek out
remote parts of the world with languages as yet untouched by
commercial name mining and come back with a harvest of great new names
for apache projects  ;-)

- robert

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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Cliff Schmidt
In reply to this post by Sanjiva Weerawarana
On 8/4/06, Sanjiva Weerawarana <[hidden email]> wrote:
> IMO the reason this naming debate hasn't been settled is because of the
> way in which the change from Blaze to Glasgow was achieved: it was done
> privately and the result was announced here.

hmm...sounds like we should have some docs that suggest that the
moment a group of people proposes a new project for incubation (if
they don't already have an existing open project mailing list), they
should use the [hidden email] list as their pre-project discussion
list.  When any question about the proposal comes up, all proposed
committers (10-20 of them) are encouraged to have their own discussion
on our lists to work out what they'd like to do.  Might even be better
to say that the moment a few of them have an idea for the proposal,
they should use our general list to discuss the proposal drafts before
proposing it to us.     ;-)

I have no doubt that every committer of every proposal I've ever been
involved has understood the importance of open discussions on apache
lists once the project starts.  However, I think most of them have
hesitated to use apache lists for project-specific discussions before
their proposal has even been accepted (other than to respond to
concerns/questions from the incubator community).

> We're *such* a whacky bunch.

indeed, we are.

Clif

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RE: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Gav....
In reply to this post by robert burrell donkin-2


> -----Original Message-----
> From: robert burrell donkin [mailto:[hidden email]]
> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2006 4:41 AM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)
>

<snip>

> given the amount of upset caused by names, i think that we should
> appoint sanjiva as chief-name-wangler. his role would be to seek out
> remote parts of the world with languages as yet untouched by
> commercial name mining and come back with a harvest of great new names
> for apache projects  ;-)

Im sure (well 99% sure) this was in jest, but before coming to this point
In the discussion I was thinking along the lines of maybe having a file
Somewhere where a wide range of suitable names live, projects could then
Choose one knowing it has already gone through all the legal stuff etc.

This however has its downside in that in the future, some of these names
May get snapped up externally and get trademarked etc, meaning the file
Would have to be kept up to date in this regard.

.. bringing me to my real question, suppose an incubating project choose
A name, it gets checked, yep all good and no legal issues, we now have
(e.g.) barney.apache.org. Its been going a few months and then some
External Company decides to trademark 'barney' as a piece of java
Software - what is the legal stance there? I don't know, but I suppose
I'm asking without looking, do names chosen for Apache projects get
Legally protected by ASF, first come first served and all that.?

Gav...

>
> - robert
>
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>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/410 - Release Date: 8/5/2006



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Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into Incubator)

Craig L Russell
This discussion reminds me of the legal case that McDonalds brought  
against a small coffee shop in Half Moon Bay who had been doing  
business for 20 years as McCoffee's. Once McD discovered that they  
could claim any food-related trademark beginning with Mc, their  
lawyers were off in hot pursuit. They eventually settled the suit  
with an appropriate degree of rancor by changing their name to M  
Coffee. :-(

Seriously, while it's possible that someone could later on try to  
register a name already in use by an Apache project, said trademark  
registration would of necessity include a reference to the prior use  
(if relevant) at Apache. And if the registration owner tried to come  
after Apache later, first use would probably win (assuming any sense  
of fair play). But IANAL. And remember M Coffee.

Craig

On Aug 7, 2006, at 3:39 AM, Gav.... wrote:

>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: robert burrell donkin [mailto:[hidden email]]
>> Sent: Monday, 7 August 2006 4:41 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: Project Naming (was Re: [VOTE] Accept Glasgow into  
>> Incubator)
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>> given the amount of upset caused by names, i think that we should
>> appoint sanjiva as chief-name-wangler. his role would be to seek out
>> remote parts of the world with languages as yet untouched by
>> commercial name mining and come back with a harvest of great new  
>> names
>> for apache projects  ;-)
>
> Im sure (well 99% sure) this was in jest, but before coming to this  
> point
> In the discussion I was thinking along the lines of maybe having a  
> file
> Somewhere where a wide range of suitable names live, projects could  
> then
> Choose one knowing it has already gone through all the legal stuff  
> etc.
>
> This however has its downside in that in the future, some of these  
> names
> May get snapped up externally and get trademarked etc, meaning the  
> file
> Would have to be kept up to date in this regard.
>
> .. bringing me to my real question, suppose an incubating project  
> choose
> A name, it gets checked, yep all good and no legal issues, we now have
> (e.g.) barney.apache.org. Its been going a few months and then some
> External Company decides to trademark 'barney' as a piece of java
> Software - what is the legal stance there? I don't know, but I suppose
> I'm asking without looking, do names chosen for Apache projects get
> Legally protected by ASF, first come first served and all that.?
>
> Gav...
>
>>
>> - robert
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/410 - Release Date:  
>> 8/5/2006
>
>
>
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Craig Russell
Architect, Sun Java Enterprise System http://java.sun.com/products/jdo
408 276-5638 mailto:[hidden email]
P.S. A good JDO? O, Gasp!


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