Podling release vote terminology

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Podling release vote terminology

Craig Russell-3
I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes and whose votes are counted.

I'd like to suggest:

There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the final vote is tallied.

All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases combined.

This terminology answers questions about:

Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the second phase. They do.
Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.

If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.

Craig L Russell
[hidden email]


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Jim Apple
If PPMC members A, B, and C, who are not IPMC members, vote +1 on a
release, and then the second phase starts, acquires three +1 IPMC votes,
but A, B, and C change their votes to -1, does the release pass?

Hoe long must the first phase last? How long may it last?

If in the first phase, the vote is +3 to -4, may the release manager begin
the second phase?

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two
> separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator
> general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes
> and whose votes are counted.
>
> I'd like to suggest:
>
> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the
> vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative
> vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the
> second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An
> individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the
> final vote is tallied.
>
> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally
> counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined
> and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
> combined.
>
> This terminology answers questions about:
>
> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the
> second phase. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
>
> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.
>
> Craig L Russell
> [hidden email]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Luciano Resende
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:04 AM, Jim Apple <[hidden email]> wrote:

> If PPMC members A, B, and C, who are not IPMC members, vote +1 on a
> release, and then the second phase starts, acquires three +1 IPMC votes,
> but A, B, and C change their votes to -1, does the release pass?
>
>
Independent of binding or non-binding, releases can not be vetoed, although
RMs most of the time will want to fix release issues.

http://www.apache.org/legal/release-policy.html#release-approval


> Hoe long must the first phase last? How long may it last?
>
>
Votes are required to stay at least for 72 hours, although the vote should
not be closed unless you have the minimum 3 +1 binding votes.

http://www.apache.org/legal/release-policy.html#release-approval


> If in the first phase, the vote is +3 to -4, may the release manager begin
> the second phase?
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> > I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two
> > separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator
> > general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes
> > and whose votes are counted.
> >
> > I'd like to suggest:
> >
> > There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the
> > vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative
> > vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the
> > second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An
> > individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the
> > final vote is tallied.
> >
> > All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final
> tally
> > counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined
> > and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
> > combined.
> >
> > This terminology answers questions about:
> >
> > Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> > Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the
> > second phase. They do.
> > Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> > Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
> >
> > If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be
> updated.
> >
> > Craig L Russell
> > [hidden email]
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> > For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >
> >
>



--
Luciano Resende
http://twitter.com/lresende1975
http://lresende.blogspot.com/
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

P. Taylor Goetz
In reply to this post by Craig Russell-3
I think that would be a good way to clear up some of the confusion. +1


> On May 9, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes and whose votes are counted.
>
> I'd like to suggest:
>
> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the final vote is tallied.
>
> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases combined.
>
> This terminology answers questions about:
>
> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the second phase. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.

Are you proposing to include these questions/answers in the docs? I think it would help prevent any misinterpretation of the terminology.


>
> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.
>
> Craig L Russell
> [hidden email]
>

-Taylor


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Craig Russell-3
In reply to this post by Jim Apple
Hi Jim,

Good questions.

> On May 9, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Jim Apple <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> If PPMC members A, B, and C, who are not IPMC members, vote +1 on a
> release, and then the second phase starts, acquires three +1 IPMC votes,
> but A, B, and C change their votes to -1, does the release pass?

Binding votes: 3 +1
non-binding votes: 3 -1

The binding votes determine the outcome. The vote passes.
>
> Hoe long must the first phase last? How long may it last?

Usual rules. No change.
>
> If in the first phase, the vote is +3 to -4, may the release manager begin
> the second phase?

No. The usual rules apply to the first phase. More positive than negative votes. At least three PPMC members must cast votes in order to go to the second phase.

Craig

>
> On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two
>> separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator
>> general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes
>> and whose votes are counted.
>>
>> I'd like to suggest:
>>
>> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the
>> vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative
>> vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the
>> second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An
>> individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the
>> final vote is tallied.
>>
>> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally
>> counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined
>> and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
>> combined.
>>
>> This terminology answers questions about:
>>
>> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
>> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the
>> second phase. They do.
>> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
>> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
>>
>> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> [hidden email]
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>

Craig L Russell
[hidden email]


---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Jim Apple
In that case, I oppose this change. I believe the status quo is just as
clear as this new proposal.

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi Jim,
>
> Good questions.
>
> > On May 9, 2017, at 11:04 AM, Jim Apple <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > If PPMC members A, B, and C, who are not IPMC members, vote +1 on a
> > release, and then the second phase starts, acquires three +1 IPMC votes,
> > but A, B, and C change their votes to -1, does the release pass?
>
> Binding votes: 3 +1
> non-binding votes: 3 -1
>
> The binding votes determine the outcome. The vote passes.
> >
> > Hoe long must the first phase last? How long may it last?
>
> Usual rules. No change.
> >
> > If in the first phase, the vote is +3 to -4, may the release manager
> begin
> > the second phase?
>
> No. The usual rules apply to the first phase. More positive than negative
> votes. At least three PPMC members must cast votes in order to go to the
> second phase.
>
> Craig
> >
> > On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >
> >> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two
> >> separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator
> >> general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over
> votes
> >> and whose votes are counted.
> >>
> >> I'd like to suggest:
> >>
> >> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of
> the
> >> vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An
> affirmative
> >> vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start
> the
> >> second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An
> >> individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the
> >> final vote is tallied.
> >>
> >> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final
> tally
> >> counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases
> combined
> >> and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
> >> combined.
> >>
> >> This terminology answers questions about:
> >>
> >> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> >> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the
> >> second phase. They do.
> >> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> >> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
> >>
> >> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be
> updated.
> >>
> >> Craig L Russell
> >> [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
> >>
> >>
>
> Craig L Russell
> [hidden email]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Roman Shaposhnik
In reply to this post by Craig Russell-3
On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:00 AM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two separate, distinct votes:
> one in the podling and one in the incubator general. And lots of questions about binding votes
> and carried-over votes and whose votes are counted.
>
> I'd like to suggest:
>
> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the vote takes place on the podling dev list.
> Anyone can vote. An affirmative vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the second
> phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An individual's vote can be changed any time during either
> phase until the final vote is tallied.
>
> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally counts affirmative, neutral, and
> negative votes from both phases combined and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
> combined.

I think this talk about distinct phases is confusing, but otherwise I
really like where this is going.

To me -- there are no two distinct phases -- there's just opening up
of an initial vote.

Or to put it another way, I'd like to optimize for a happy path. Which
is: vote goes on
on dev@ and receives 3+ binding votes from IPMC members. At that point I'd like
the vote to be DONE.

Is there a way for us to optimize for that? From where I sit one way to optimize
is simply frontload the process and ALWAYS CC: IPMC on the community votes.

> This terminology answers questions about:
>
> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the second phase. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
>
> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.

Terminology makes sense.

Thanks,
Roman.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

Julian Hyde-3
In reply to this post by P. Taylor Goetz
Craig,

You seem to imply that things used to be done differently. If so, can
you point to process documents or example threads of how things were
done differently in the past.

Are you proposing merely a change in terminology, or a change in
process? The two "votes" are very real, since they have distinct
threads, and distinct result/cancel messages. I'd set a high bar to
move to a new process because the current process is working (albeit
with some confusion which could be cleared up with better
documentation).

Julian


On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:27 AM, P. Taylor Goetz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I think that would be a good way to clear up some of the confusion. +1
>
>
>> On May 9, 2017, at 2:00 PM, Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes and whose votes are counted.
>>
>> I'd like to suggest:
>>
>> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the final vote is tallied.
>>
>> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases combined.
>>
>> This terminology answers questions about:
>>
>> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
>> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the second phase. They do.
>> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
>> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
>
> Are you proposing to include these questions/answers in the docs? I think it would help prevent any misinterpretation of the terminology.
>
>
>>
>> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.
>>
>> Craig L Russell
>> [hidden email]
>>
>
> -Taylor
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>

---------------------------------------------------------------------
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]

Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Podling release vote terminology

John D. Ament-2
In reply to this post by Craig Russell-3
Craig,

If you have a case to site, it may make it easier to follow how it would be
different.

One area where I do see consistent confusion on are the votes that count.
I personally want to see a more fluid vote policy, but it should be clearer
which votes were cast and which votes are binding.

At one point, I updated [1] to reflect the binding part, but the struggle
remains.

John

[1]: http://incubator.apache.org/guides/ppmc.html#PPMC+binding+votes


On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 2:00 PM Craig Russell <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I've seen a few (recent) incubator votes that imply that there are two
> separate, distinct votes: one in the podling and one in the incubator
> general. And lots of questions about binding votes and carried-over votes
> and whose votes are counted.
>
> I'd like to suggest:
>
> There is one vote for a podling release candidate. The first phase of the
> vote takes place on the podling dev list. Anyone can vote. An affirmative
> vote by three PPMC members (including mentors) is sufficient to start the
> second phase, which takes place on the incubator general list. An
> individual's vote can be changed any time during either phase until the
> final vote is tallied.
>
> All votes are counted. Only IPMC member votes are binding. The final tally
> counts affirmative, neutral, and negative votes from both phases combined
> and affirmative, neutral and negative binding votes from both phases
> combined.
>
> This terminology answers questions about:
>
> Whether PPMC votes are binding. They are not.
> Whether IPMC member votes on the first phase of voting carry over to the
> second phase. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase count. They do.
> Whether public votes in either phase are binding. They are not.
>
> If we agree on the terminology, I'll see what documents need to be updated.
>
> Craig L Russell
> [hidden email]
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>
>