Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

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Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
We currently have a maven 2 repository for maven 2 snapshot releases
of incubating projects...
http://people.apache.org/maven-snapshot-repository/

we also have a maven 1 repository for both incubating and
non-incubating projects
http://people.apache.org/repository/

and we have a maven2 repository for non-incubating projects
http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/

Right now its hurting users of incubating projects not to have a maven
2 repository of the actual releases made by the projects.

I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
apache mirrors for incubating projects. However could we have a maven
2 repository somewhere for the releases of incubating projects? Or
could we put the incubating projects's m2 releases in the current m2
repository (afterall the versions of the jars have 'incubator' in
their name to clearly mark them?

I'd be happy with either approach; the latter option is simpler as its
one less URL to remember (and I get confused enough as it is
remembering where all the maven repos are ;-) plus it minimises the
impact on users as projects graduate, not having to switch maven
repositories.

Thoughts?
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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Jochen Wiedmann
On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> apache mirrors for incubating projects.

Why do you think so? If, as you say, the artifact Id explicitly
contains the term "incubator", then I would think that that is
absolutely sufficient for letting people know that they are using
incubating software. Additionally, one might add the incubator notice
to the POM files.

Jochen

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majority, it is time to pause and reflect.
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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
>
> Why do you think so? If, as you say, the artifact Id explicitly
> contains the term "incubator", then I would think that that is
> absolutely sufficient for letting people know that they are using
> incubating software.

I seem to remember the Incubator policy used to say something to the
effect that incubatoring projects were not Apache projects yet so
couldn't use the Apache mirror system. I tried to find that in the
current policy document but got the tantalising line...

http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Releases

"The Podling is not yet an Apache project, and it should thus always
refer to the Incubator Project Resource usage Guidelines, that are as
follows"

and it then doesn't say anything about releases :)

Anyone know where the "Incubator Project Resource usage Guidelines"
are? Am wondering if the policy has changed and incubating projects
can now use the regular m2 repository - which appears to be this one I
think...

http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/


> Additionally, one might add the incubator notice
> to the POM files.

FWIW there are usually incubating notices inside the jars too along
with in the README.

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Leo Simons
In reply to this post by James.Strachan
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:14:11AM +0100, James Strachan wrote:
> I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> apache mirrors for incubating projects.

I didn't know of that rule. Can't find it on the web anywhere, at least.

If it is a rule, then there's some violations. Eg synapse

  http://incubator.apache.org/synapse/download.cgi

is being mirrored.

I must say it somehow makes sense not to mirror this stuff; after all the
"lifetime" of these releases is not supposed to be all that long and the
number of downloads is probably low, too. It seems we indeed don't mirror
most things, eg, they are at

  http://people.apache.org/dist/incubator/

> However could we have a maven
> 2 repository somewhere for the releases of incubating projects?

Can't see why not. I would say somewhere inside

  http://people.apache.org/dist/incubator/

> Or
> could we put the incubating projects's m2 releases in the current m2
> repository (afterall the versions of the jars have 'incubator' in
> their name to clearly mark them?

I don't have an objection to that either.

> I'd be happy with either approach; the latter option is simpler as its
> one less URL to remember (and I get confused enough as it is
> remembering where all the maven repos are ;-) plus it minimises the
> impact on users as projects graduate, not having to switch maven
> repositories.
>
> Thoughts?

Other than that it should be easier to use many different repositories
with maven ( :) ), I don't care very much either way. The whole idea
behind all those policies we have is that it is pretty clear to users
what the 'status' of the stuff they're geting is. If the filename says
"incubating" that means users are typing that into the maven POM file;
it seems they're not all that likely to pay much attention to whether
its people.apache.org/dist/ or www.apache.org/dist/.

LSD

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, Leo Simons <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 09:14:11AM +0100, James Strachan wrote:
> > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
>
> I didn't know of that rule. Can't find it on the web anywhere, at least.
>
> If it is a rule, then there's some violations. Eg synapse
>
>   http://incubator.apache.org/synapse/download.cgi
>
> is being mirrored.
>
> I must say it somehow makes sense not to mirror this stuff; after all the
> "lifetime" of these releases is not supposed to be all that long and the
> number of downloads is probably low, too. It seems we indeed don't mirror
> most things, eg, they are at
>
>   http://people.apache.org/dist/incubator/
>
> > However could we have a maven
> > 2 repository somewhere for the releases of incubating projects?
>
> Can't see why not. I would say somewhere inside
>
>   http://people.apache.org/dist/incubator/
>
> > Or
> > could we put the incubating projects's m2 releases in the current m2
> > repository (afterall the versions of the jars have 'incubator' in
> > their name to clearly mark them?
>
> I don't have an objection to that either.
>
> > I'd be happy with either approach; the latter option is simpler as its
> > one less URL to remember (and I get confused enough as it is
> > remembering where all the maven repos are ;-) plus it minimises the
> > impact on users as projects graduate, not having to switch maven
> > repositories.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
> Other than that it should be easier to use many different repositories
> with maven ( :) ), I don't care very much either way. The whole idea
> behind all those policies we have is that it is pretty clear to users
> what the 'status' of the stuff they're geting is. If the filename says
> "incubating" that means users are typing that into the maven POM file;
> it seems they're not all that likely to pay much attention to whether
> its people.apache.org/dist/ or www.apache.org/dist/.

Actually thats a good argument for using a single maven 2 repository
for incubating and non-incubating releases and forcing the use of the
'incubator/incubating' text in the version of incubating projects
releases. As it means if you are looking at the POM its immediately
obvious what the incubating status is - whereaas its not obvious if
you are using different repositories (since Maven can use many remote
repositories taken from the current pom or a super-pom and so from a
pom its not completely obvious what comes from where etc).

--

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Matthias Wessendorf-4
> Actually thats a good argument for using a single maven 2 repository
> for incubating and non-incubating releases and forcing the use of the
> 'incubator/incubating' text in the version of incubating projects
> releases. As it means if you are looking at the POM its immediately
> obvious what the incubating status is - whereaas its not obvious if
> you are using different repositories (since Maven can use many remote
> repositories taken from the current pom or a super-pom and so from a
> pom its not completely obvious what comes from where etc).

Hi James,

What we do currently (trying to name the versions righ) is:

  <groupId>org.apache.myfaces.trinidad</groupId>
  <artifactId>trinidad</artifactId>
  <packaging>pom</packaging>
  <name>Apache Incubator Trinidad Podling</name>
  <version>incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT</version>

incubator +
m1 = milestone1
+ SNAPSHOT (since no m1 release yet)

m1 has sorta *historic* reasons; when we (MyFaces) started there was
Geronimo in incubation; they used milestone  b/c not a fullblown J2EE
1.4 container. MyFaces also was not certified. Since we - the MyFaces
PMC - had good experience with the milestone; we keept it for Trinidad
as well.

What I more like that a seperate maven1/2 repo is maybe a incubator
continuum server.
Currently Trinidad uses that MyFaces continuum server.

What do you think?

-Matthias

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, Matthias Wessendorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > Actually thats a good argument for using a single maven 2 repository
> > for incubating and non-incubating releases and forcing the use of the
> > 'incubator/incubating' text in the version of incubating projects
> > releases. As it means if you are looking at the POM its immediately
> > obvious what the incubating status is - whereaas its not obvious if
> > you are using different repositories (since Maven can use many remote
> > repositories taken from the current pom or a super-pom and so from a
> > pom its not completely obvious what comes from where etc).
>
> Hi James,
>
> What we do currently (trying to name the versions righ) is:
>
>   <groupId>org.apache.myfaces.trinidad</groupId>
>   <artifactId>trinidad</artifactId>
>   <packaging>pom</packaging>
>   <name>Apache Incubator Trinidad Podling</name>
>   <version>incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT</version>
>
> incubator +
> m1 = milestone1
> + SNAPSHOT (since no m1 release yet)

Sounds good to me.



> What I more like that a seperate maven1/2 repo is maybe a incubator
> continuum server.
> Currently Trinidad uses that MyFaces continuum server.

Yeah! :) One of those would rock too.

Though we also need an m2 repository so that users using m2 can build
against releases of incubating projects.
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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Matthias Wessendorf-4
> >   <version>incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT</version>
> >
> > incubator +
> > m1 = milestone1
> > + SNAPSHOT (since no m1 release yet)
>
> Sounds good to me.

So we put this to the guideline?
incubator + mX (+ SNAPSHOT)


> > What I more like that a seperate maven1/2 repo is maybe a incubator
> > continuum server.
> > Currently Trinidad uses that MyFaces continuum server.
>
> Yeah! :) One of those would rock too.
>
> Though we also need an m2 repository so that users using m2 can build
> against releases of incubating projects.

Or we just use *regular* snapshot repo?


> --
>
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--
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further stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, Matthias Wessendorf <[hidden email]> wrote:

> > >   <version>incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT</version>
> > >
> > > incubator +
> > > m1 = milestone1
> > > + SNAPSHOT (since no m1 release yet)
> >
> > Sounds good to me.
>
> So we put this to the guideline?
> incubator + mX (+ SNAPSHOT)
>
>
> > > What I more like that a seperate maven1/2 repo is maybe a incubator
> > > continuum server.
> > > Currently Trinidad uses that MyFaces continuum server.
> >
> > Yeah! :) One of those would rock too.
> >
> > Though we also need an m2 repository so that users using m2 can build
> > against releases of incubating projects.
>
> Or we just use *regular* snapshot repo?

We could do - though given the choice I'd rather keep the m2 snapshot
repo for just snapshots (of both incubating and non-incubating
projects) and use the existing m2 repo for just actual releases of
projects (both incubating and non-incubating).

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Matthias Wessendorf-4
> We could do - though given the choice I'd rather keep the m2 snapshot
> repo for just snapshots (of both incubating and non-incubating
> projects) and use the existing m2 repo for just actual releases of
> projects (both incubating and non-incubating).

+1

we already do
http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-snapshot-repository/org/apache/myfaces/adf/

:)

> --
>
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--
Matthias Wessendorf

further stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

J. Daniel Kulp
In reply to this post by Matthias Wessendorf-4

On Thursday July 27 2006 1:13 pm, Matthias Wessendorf wrote:

> > >   <version>incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT</version>
> > >
> > > incubator +
> > > m1 = milestone1
> > > + SNAPSHOT (since no m1 release yet)
> >
> > Sounds good to me.
>
> So we put this to the guideline?
> incubator + mX (+ SNAPSHOT)

I'd like to get another Maven "expert" in here on this, but I know I've
seen "issues" with having a version that doesn't start with a number.   Thus,
something like:

0.1-incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT
or
1.0-incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT
or similar.

Some of the maven "version matches", especiall in regards to pattern matching,  
kind of expect that form.  I think the "better builds with maven 2" book
describes the preferred pattern as something like:
#.#[.#*][-qualifier][-#][-SNAPSHOT]

Anyway, yoko has gone with 1.0-incubating-M1-SNAPSHOT


--
J. Daniel Kulp
Principal Engineer
IONA
P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194   F:781-902-8001
[hidden email]

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Matthias Wessendorf-4
> > So we put this to the guideline?
> > incubator + mX (+ SNAPSHOT)
>
> I'd like to get another Maven "expert" in here on this, but I know I've
> seen "issues" with having a version that doesn't start with a number.   Thus,
> something like:
>
> 0.1-incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT
> or
> 1.0-incubator-m1-SNAPSHOT
> or similar.
>
> Some of the maven "version matches", especiall in regards to pattern matching,
> kind of expect that form.  I think the "better builds with maven 2" book
> describes the preferred pattern as something like:
> #.#[.#*][-qualifier][-#][-SNAPSHOT]

Ok, I have no problems with 0.1 or 1.0-incu... :)

thanks for the heads up!

> Anyway, yoko has gone with 1.0-incubating-M1-SNAPSHOT
>
>
> --
> J. Daniel Kulp
> Principal Engineer
> IONA
> P: 781-902-8727    C: 508-380-7194   F:781-902-8001
> [hidden email]
>
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further stuff:
blog: http://jroller.com/page/mwessendorf
mail: mwessendorf-at-gmail-dot-com

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

robert burrell donkin-2
In reply to this post by James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/27/06, Jochen Wiedmann <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> > > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
> >
> > Why do you think so? If, as you say, the artifact Id explicitly
> > contains the term "incubator", then I would think that that is
> > absolutely sufficient for letting people know that they are using
> > incubating software.
>
> I seem to remember the Incubator policy used to say something to the
> effect that incubatoring projects were not Apache projects yet so
> couldn't use the Apache mirror system.

+1

> I tried to find that in the
> current policy document but got the tantalising line...
>
> http://incubator.apache.org/incubation/Incubation_Policy.html#Releases
>
> "The Podling is not yet an Apache project, and it should thus always
> refer to the Incubator Project Resource usage Guidelines, that are as
> follows"
>
> and it then doesn't say anything about releases :)
>
> Anyone know where the "Incubator Project Resource usage Guidelines"
> are?

i suspect that they were never actually written :-/

i've been trying to tidy up the document but there's still a lot of
work to do. there's still a lof of cruft.

the general infrastructure practice is that unofficial distributions
should not be mirrored and that only full official releases should be
mirrored by default. the incubator does not allow full official
releases so the default should be a non-mirrored repository.

> FWIW there are usually incubating notices inside the jars too along
> with in the README.

+1

- robert

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Continuum for incubator (was: Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?)

Leo Simons
In reply to this post by Matthias Wessendorf-4
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 10:02:07AM -0700, Matthias Wessendorf wrote:
> What I more like that a seperate maven1/2 repo is maybe a incubator
> continuum server.
> Currently Trinidad uses that MyFaces continuum server.
>
> What do you think?

Doesn't make sense to me. Where possible incubator shouldn't turn into
a "mini-apache". Before you know it we'd have [hidden email]
*g*. It should just be an apache-wide service. Go help the continuum guys make it
happen, I know people are working on it :)

LSD

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Henri Yandell
In reply to this post by James.Strachan
On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> apache mirrors for incubating projects.

The maven repositories are no longer mirrored, so that rule is no
longer applicable for releasing jars into the maven repository.

Hen

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

James.Strachan
On 7/28/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
>
> The maven repositories are no longer mirrored, so that rule is no
> longer applicable for releasing jars into the maven repository.

So do you think its it OK to go ahead and put m2 releases of
incubating projects here then...

http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/

Its a +1 from me at lesat
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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Henri Yandell
On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 7/28/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of the
> > > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
> >
> > The maven repositories are no longer mirrored, so that rule is no
> > longer applicable for releasing jars into the maven repository.
>
> So do you think its it OK to go ahead and put m2 releases of
> incubating projects here then...
>
> http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/
>
> Its a +1 from me at lesat

From the repository point of view - I don't see any reason why not. As
long as they are defined releases (rather than snapshots), then they
fit the rsync repo. +1

Hen

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Guillaume Nodet-3
Then, could someone please remove the line in
   /www/people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/README.txt
saying
  - no artifacts are allowed from projects under incubation

Thx,
Guillaume Nodet

Henri Yandell wrote:

> On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> On 7/28/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > On 7/27/06, James Strachan <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > > I understand the current rules of the incubator forbid the use of
>> the
>> > > apache mirrors for incubating projects.
>> >
>> > The maven repositories are no longer mirrored, so that rule is no
>> > longer applicable for releasing jars into the maven repository.
>>
>> So do you think its it OK to go ahead and put m2 releases of
>> incubating projects here then...
>>
>> http://people.apache.org/repo/m2-ibiblio-rsync-repository/
>>
>> Its a +1 from me at lesat
>
>
>> From the repository point of view - I don't see any reason why not. As
>
> long as they are defined releases (rather than snapshots), then they
> fit the rsync repo. +1
>
> Hen
>
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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Justin Erenkrantz
In reply to this post by Henri Yandell
On 7/27/06, Henri Yandell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> From the repository point of view - I don't see any reason why not. As
> long as they are defined releases (rather than snapshots), then they
> fit the rsync repo. +1

The point that I've heard from Noel in the past (not sure if he's busy
traveling and not reading email) is that he wanted Maven repositories
with Incubating projects to be completely separate from non-Incubating
projects.  That is, the user must actively add a Maven repository URL
that has 'incubator' or something similar in it to understand that
they are downloading something that is not an official project.  So, I
don't believe we should allow any Incubating artifacts in any
'regular' Maven repository that the ASF has any control over.  --
justin.

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Re: Maven 2 repo for incubating project releases?

Jukka Zitting
Hi,

On 7/28/06, Justin Erenkrantz <[hidden email]> wrote:
> That is, the user must actively add a Maven repository URL
> that has 'incubator' or something similar in it to understand that
> they are downloading something that is not an official project.  So, I
> don't believe we should allow any Incubating artifacts in any
> 'regular' Maven repository that the ASF has any control over.

I don't know the background of this policy, but to me it seems that
including "incubating" (or something like that) in the artifact
version number is much more visible to a user than the repository
where the artifact resides.

Usually a project that uses a non-standard repository address has the
address of that repository stored within the project configuration so
Maven will automatically download the required artifacts with no user
intervention. And after the artifact has once been downloaded, the
repository location is never used again, i.e. an incubating artifact
will look just like one downloaded from a standard repository.

On the other hand, if the incubation status is indicated in the
artifact name, it will remain visible in IDE project settings, runtime
classpaths, deployed webapps, etc.

BR,

Jukka Zitting

--
Yukatan - http://yukatan.fi/ - [hidden email]
Software craftsmanship, JCR consulting, and Java development

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