Email to be sent to inactive mentors

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Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

There been several discussions over several month on what to do about missing mentors. In some case have a missing mentors is not an issue and there’s other mentors that can help, whoever currently we have a number of podling with only one or two active mentors and the board has concerns about the rate of report sign off and missing podling reports. (Both of which could be a sign of inactive mentors).

Here the draft email I’m going to send out late next week (baring any objections) to all inactive mentors (as listed in this document [2] with no activity for a podling). Feedback on the text below welcome.

Given there will be 60 or so emails sent out, how do we want to handle this and the replies? It’s going to generate a lot of noise on the list. I could make it more generic and contain it to one thread but then we are likely to get mentors asking what podlings we are asking abut or mentors that are active in other podlings objecting thinking that they are active. Also should the replies go to general@ or private@, given people may have personal reasons for not being active and may not want to share that in a public list.

It may be better to send off list (from my apache.org email address) and bring back a summary here to reduce the amount of on-list noise.

If we don’t get a reply within a week I would suggest removing them as mentors and ask the podling to start looking for another mentor if needed. They can ask to be added back  as a mentor at any future point by asking their PPMC or asking here.

The email to be sent:

———————————
Hi <mentor>,

I can see you are are the mentor of <podling(s)> and haven’t been signing off reports on a frequent basis or active on the mailing list in the last 6 months. We’re grateful that you stood up as a volunteer to mentor this project, but things change and you may no longer be in the position to be able to mentor this podling.

Could you respond to this email and indicate if you wish to continue as a mentor or step down.

Here’s a reminder of what mentors are expected to do. [1]

Thanks,
Justin Mclean (V.P. Incubator)

1. https://incubator.apache.org/policy/roles_and_responsibilities.html#mentor

———————————

Thanks,
Justin

2. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oR2kymzDTLOy-P-QLYM1wlHFES6LG9X-V2SMgwohvR4/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Julian Hyde-3
Perhaps add some recognition in the text of the email that there may
be activity that we are unaware of? (Unlikely, but it seems rude to
presume.)

I strongly support your efforts to hold mentors accountable. Thanks
for doing it, Justin!

Julian

On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 5:53 PM Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> There been several discussions over several month on what to do about missing mentors. In some case have a missing mentors is not an issue and there’s other mentors that can help, whoever currently we have a number of podling with only one or two active mentors and the board has concerns about the rate of report sign off and missing podling reports. (Both of which could be a sign of inactive mentors).
>
> Here the draft email I’m going to send out late next week (baring any objections) to all inactive mentors (as listed in this document [2] with no activity for a podling). Feedback on the text below welcome.
>
> Given there will be 60 or so emails sent out, how do we want to handle this and the replies? It’s going to generate a lot of noise on the list. I could make it more generic and contain it to one thread but then we are likely to get mentors asking what podlings we are asking abut or mentors that are active in other podlings objecting thinking that they are active. Also should the replies go to general@ or private@, given people may have personal reasons for not being active and may not want to share that in a public list.
>
> It may be better to send off list (from my apache.org email address) and bring back a summary here to reduce the amount of on-list noise.
>
> If we don’t get a reply within a week I would suggest removing them as mentors and ask the podling to start looking for another mentor if needed. They can ask to be added back  as a mentor at any future point by asking their PPMC or asking here.
>
> The email to be sent:
>
> ———————————
> Hi <mentor>,
>
> I can see you are are the mentor of <podling(s)> and haven’t been signing off reports on a frequent basis or active on the mailing list in the last 6 months. We’re grateful that you stood up as a volunteer to mentor this project, but things change and you may no longer be in the position to be able to mentor this podling.
>
> Could you respond to this email and indicate if you wish to continue as a mentor or step down.
>
> Here’s a reminder of what mentors are expected to do. [1]
>
> Thanks,
> Justin Mclean (V.P. Incubator)
>
> 1. https://incubator.apache.org/policy/roles_and_responsibilities.html#mentor
>
> ———————————
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 2. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oR2kymzDTLOy-P-QLYM1wlHFES6LG9X-V2SMgwohvR4/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

> Perhaps add some recognition in the text of the email that there may
> be activity that we are unaware of? (Unlikely, but it seems rude to
> presume.)

I guess it’s possible you can mentor by just watching and only directing were needed, so if everything going well there may be no need for any interaction. People can use different email address or names online and could of been missed when I searched the email lists. So yes if possible one or two people may be incorrectly sent this email.

I’ll add:

Of course it may be that we've got it wrong for one reason or another and you are actually active, if that’s the case apologies in advance, and we’re happy for you to continue as a mentor of your podling(s).

> I strongly support your efforts to hold mentors accountable. Thanks
> for doing it, Justin!

Thanks. I think it’s got to the point were some action needs to be taken, rather than keep discussing it :-)

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Daniel Gruno-2
There seems to be a bit of confusion here. I am not a mentor for
Annotator, yet I am listed as one. I did champion it (and offer
advice/help on occasion), but AIUI the champion's duties officially stop
once the project has entered incubation and gotten set up. If this is
not the case, then our policies should be updated to reflect this, as it
seems wrong to assume duties we did not explicitly ask people to take on.

With regards,
Daniel.

On 09/09/2018 11:14 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:

> Hi,
>
>> Perhaps add some recognition in the text of the email that there may
>> be activity that we are unaware of? (Unlikely, but it seems rude to
>> presume.)
>
> I guess it’s possible you can mentor by just watching and only directing were needed, so if everything going well there may be no need for any interaction. People can use different email address or names online and could of been missed when I searched the email lists. So yes if possible one or two people may be incorrectly sent this email.
>
> I’ll add:
>
> Of course it may be that we've got it wrong for one reason or another and you are actually active, if that’s the case apologies in advance, and we’re happy for you to continue as a mentor of your podling(s).
>
>> I strongly support your efforts to hold mentors accountable. Thanks
>> for doing it, Justin!
>
> Thanks. I think it’s got to the point were some action needs to be taken, rather than keep discussing it :-)
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
HI,

> There seems to be a bit of confusion here. I am not a mentor for Annotator, yet I am listed as one.

You listed as one here. [1]

It get it’s info (I believe) from the podling.xml files which has this in it for Annotator:
        <mentors>
            <mentor username="niq">Nick Kew</mentor>
            <mentor username="brianm">Brian McCallister</mentor>
            <mentor username="humbedooh">Daniel Gruno</mentor>
            <mentor username="jim">Jim Jagielski</mentor>
        </mentors>

Is that information perhaps out of date or incorrect? You are also listed as the champion.
        <champion availid="humbedooh">Daniel Gruno</champion>

> I did champion it (and offer advice/help on occasion), but AIUI the champion's duties officially stop once the project has entered incubation and gotten set up.

They can be the case, but some champions also continue on as mentors.

I take it from that that you would like to be removed as a mentor and not sent the email?

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/annotator


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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Daniel Gruno-2
On 09/09/2018 11:33 AM, Justin Mclean wrote:

> HI,
>
>> There seems to be a bit of confusion here. I am not a mentor for Annotator, yet I am listed as one.
>
> You listed as one here. [1]
>
> It get it’s info (I believe) from the podling.xml files which has this in it for Annotator:
>          <mentors>
>              <mentor username="niq">Nick Kew</mentor>
>              <mentor username="brianm">Brian McCallister</mentor>
>              <mentor username="humbedooh">Daniel Gruno</mentor>
>              <mentor username="jim">Jim Jagielski</mentor>
>          </mentors>
>
> Is that information perhaps out of date or incorrect? You are also listed as the champion.
> <champion availid="humbedooh">Daniel Gruno</champion>
>
>> I did champion it (and offer advice/help on occasion), but AIUI the champion's duties officially stop once the project has entered incubation and gotten set up.
>
> They can be the case, but some champions also continue on as mentors.
>
> I take it from that that you would like to be removed as a mentor and not sent the email?

I honestly don't have the time to mentor them in an official capacity -
if I'm listed as anything but champion, then yes, remove me as a mentor.
I'll continue in a low-capacity to provide help when I can, but I have
other priorities first and foremost :)

>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://whimsy.apache.org/roster/ppmc/annotator
>
>
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean-3
Hi,

> I honestly don't have the time to mentor them in an official capacity - if I'm listed as anything but champion, then yes, remove me as a mentor. I'll continue in a low-capacity to provide help when I can, but I have other priorities first and foremost :)

Done and sorted.

Thanks,
Justin


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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Adina Crainiceanu
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean
Justin,

Can you please remove Josh Elser from the list of inactive mentors for Rya?
He only missed the last report and he is always available when we have
questions.

Thank you,
Adina


On Sat, Sep 8, 2018 at 8:52 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> There been several discussions over several month on what to do about
> missing mentors. In some case have a missing mentors is not an issue and
> there’s other mentors that can help, whoever currently we have a number of
> podling with only one or two active mentors and the board has concerns
> about the rate of report sign off and missing podling reports. (Both of
> which could be a sign of inactive mentors).
>
> Here the draft email I’m going to send out late next week (baring any
> objections) to all inactive mentors (as listed in this document [2] with no
> activity for a podling). Feedback on the text below welcome.
>
> Given there will be 60 or so emails sent out, how do we want to handle
> this and the replies? It’s going to generate a lot of noise on the list. I
> could make it more generic and contain it to one thread but then we are
> likely to get mentors asking what podlings we are asking abut or mentors
> that are active in other podlings objecting thinking that they are active.
> Also should the replies go to general@ or private@, given people may have
> personal reasons for not being active and may not want to share that in a
> public list.
>
> It may be better to send off list (from my apache.org email address) and
> bring back a summary here to reduce the amount of on-list noise.
>
> If we don’t get a reply within a week I would suggest removing them as
> mentors and ask the podling to start looking for another mentor if needed.
> They can ask to be added back  as a mentor at any future point by asking
> their PPMC or asking here.
>
> The email to be sent:
>
> ———————————
> Hi <mentor>,
>
> I can see you are are the mentor of <podling(s)> and haven’t been signing
> off reports on a frequent basis or active on the mailing list in the last 6
> months. We’re grateful that you stood up as a volunteer to mentor this
> project, but things change and you may no longer be in the position to be
> able to mentor this podling.
>
> Could you respond to this email and indicate if you wish to continue as a
> mentor or step down.
>
> Here’s a reminder of what mentors are expected to do. [1]
>
> Thanks,
> Justin Mclean (V.P. Incubator)
>
> 1. https://incubator.apache.org/policy/roles_and_
> responsibilities.html#mentor
>
> ———————————
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 2. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oR2kymzDTLOy-
> P-QLYM1wlHFES6LG9X-V2SMgwohvR4/edit?usp=sharing
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Benjamin Young
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean-3
And thankfully, I'm on this list and looked this up here--as this came as a bit of a shock. It's not that I didn't already know that Daniel was overwhelmed. :) It's just I didn't expect the forthcoming "remove from Annotator" email.


I believe I wrote that initial XML, and that I'd filled it in based on the guide for podlings which states something about Champion's also being Mentors.


I'm *totally* fine with Daniel focusing on higher priorities! However, if possible (from a poling perspective) it'd be super nice to have slightly more informative "removed from" emails.


Thanks!

Benjamin

--

http://bigbluehat.com/

http://linkedin.com/in/benjaminyoung

________________________________
From: Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, September 9, 2018 5:40:39 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Hi,

> I honestly don't have the time to mentor them in an official capacity - if I'm listed as anything but champion, then yes, remove me as a mentor. I'll continue in a low-capacity to provide help when I can, but I have other priorities first and foremost :)

Done and sorted.

Thanks,
Justin


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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean-3
Hi,

> And thankfully, I'm on this list and looked this up here--as this came as a bit of a shock. It's not that I didn't already know that Daniel was overwhelmed. :) It's just I didn't expect the forthcoming "remove from Annotator" email.

He asked to be removed as a mentor, because as far as he knew he wasn’t one.

> I believe I wrote that initial XML, and that I'd filled it in based on the guide for podlings which states something about Champion's also being Mentors.

They can be, but it’s not always the case. They 9and anyone else) can of course still mentor in an unofficial role.

> However, if possible (from a poling perspective) it'd be super nice to have slightly more informative "removed from" emails.

I guess I could of sent an email to your list stay that Daniel was surprised to find he was a mentor and has asked to be removed?

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
In reply to this post by Adina Crainiceanu
Hi,

I’ve just sent out an email to all (62) inactive mentors asking them if they want to continue as a mentor. I decided not to have replies come to here as I think it wild make too much noise on this list but I’ll report back with the results once I mentors start getting back to me.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

So far 20% of mentors has responded with:
- 11 asking to retire/step down/be removed as mentors
- 1 has stated that they will be more active and asked to stay on
- 1 will stay on until project graduates

For the mentors that have asked to be removed, I’ve asked them to send an email to their podlings stating that and I’ve also said that if their situation changes they just need to be asked to be re-appointed as a mentor.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

Current 1/3 of those asked have responded with:
-17 mentors have asked to retire/step down
- 3 will continue (including one who asked to step down but changed their mind and has been added back)

Of the total above 1 mentor was miss-identified as missing as they are mostly active in GitHub and not on the mailing list.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

sebb-2-2
On 17 September 2018 at 02:39, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Current 1/3 of those asked have responded with:
> -17 mentors have asked to retire/step down
> - 3 will continue (including one who asked to step down but changed their mind and has been added back)
>
> Of the total above 1 mentor was miss-identified as missing as they are mostly active in GitHub and not on the mailing list.

Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions
contribute to mentoring?
Or are you just looking for any activity rather than mentoring activity itself?

> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

> Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions contribute to mentoring?

Well I thought it wouldn't which is why I didn’t include it, but as some projects use GitHub issues a lot, so some stuff tends to get discussed there rather than on the dev list. There’s a few other factors in this case, but I think it’s on it way to being sorted. I'll bring it to the mentors attention and see what they think. (Sorry for being obtuse, but this is a public list.)

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

sebb-2-2
On 17 September 2018 at 12:10, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>> Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions contribute to mentoring?
>
> Well I thought it wouldn't which is why I didn’t include it, but as some projects use GitHub issues a lot, so some stuff tends to get discussed there rather than on the dev list.

"If it did not happen on a mailing list then it did not happen"
If the GitHub issues are not being copied to the mailing lists, then
again I don't see how that contributes to the mentoring process.

> There’s a few other factors in this case, but I think it’s on it way to being sorted. I'll bring it to the mentors attention and see what they think. (Sorry for being obtuse, but this is a public list.)

> Thanks,
> Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Julian Hyde-3
By that argument there’s no point speaking at ApacheCon. Because it doesn’t happen on a mailing list.

So let’s not be so strict.

Clearly there are many ways that a mentor can assist. Some of them are not measurable (such as having a phone call). But I think any measurable activity should count.

Julian


> On Sep 17, 2018, at 8:55 AM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> On 17 September 2018 at 12:10, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>>> Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions contribute to mentoring?
>>
>> Well I thought it wouldn't which is why I didn’t include it, but as some projects use GitHub issues a lot, so some stuff tends to get discussed there rather than on the dev list.
>
> "If it did not happen on a mailing list then it did not happen"
> If the GitHub issues are not being copied to the mailing lists, then
> again I don't see how that contributes to the mentoring process.
>
>> There’s a few other factors in this case, but I think it’s on it way to being sorted. I'll bring it to the mentors attention and see what they think. (Sorry for being obtuse, but this is a public list.)
>
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Ted Dunning
Obviously, lots of informational activity occurs off the mailing list. A
great example is answering questions on stack overflow. And ApacheCon talks
which actually led to certain decisions being made should definitely be
echoed back to the mailing list.

But apart from all of that GitHub issues should definitely be mirrored back
to the mailing list.  There's no way to justify that an issue tracker is
not echoed back.

On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 14:05 Julian Hyde <[hidden email]> wrote:

> By that argument there’s no point speaking at ApacheCon. Because it
> doesn’t happen on a mailing list.
>
> So let’s not be so strict.
>
> Clearly there are many ways that a mentor can assist. Some of them are not
> measurable (such as having a phone call). But I think any measurable
> activity should count.
>
> Julian
>
>
> > On Sep 17, 2018, at 8:55 AM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > On 17 September 2018 at 12:10, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>> Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions
> contribute to mentoring?
> >>
> >> Well I thought it wouldn't which is why I didn’t include it, but as
> some projects use GitHub issues a lot, so some stuff tends to get discussed
> there rather than on the dev list.
> >
> > "If it did not happen on a mailing list then it did not happen"
> > If the GitHub issues are not being copied to the mailing lists, then
> > again I don't see how that contributes to the mentoring process.
> >
> >> There’s a few other factors in this case, but I think it’s on it way to
> being sorted. I'll bring it to the mentors attention and see what they
> think. (Sorry for being obtuse, but this is a public list.)
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Justin Mclean
Hi,

> But apart from all of that GitHub issues should definitely be mirrored back
> to the mailing list.  There's no way to justify that an issue tracker is
> not echoed back.

They were not being, but that’s being changed, and the mentor is now signed up to the dev list where they were not before.

Mentoring is different to the PPMC making decisions, and while it best for it to be in an open and archived place, I don't think all mentoring activity has to be on the mailing list.

I still have some concerns about the amount of off-list communication but that a seperate issue.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Email to be sent to inactive mentors

Dave Fisher-5
In reply to this post by Ted Dunning
Github id does not often equal Apache id. It is not always obvious.

Regards,
Dave

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 17, 2018, at 12:35 PM, Ted Dunning <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Obviously, lots of informational activity occurs off the mailing list. A
> great example is answering questions on stack overflow. And ApacheCon talks
> which actually led to certain decisions being made should definitely be
> echoed back to the mailing list.
>
> But apart from all of that GitHub issues should definitely be mirrored back
> to the mailing list.  There's no way to justify that an issue tracker is
> not echoed back.
>
>> On Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 14:05 Julian Hyde <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> By that argument there’s no point speaking at ApacheCon. Because it
>> doesn’t happen on a mailing list.
>>
>> So let’s not be so strict.
>>
>> Clearly there are many ways that a mentor can assist. Some of them are not
>> measurable (such as having a phone call). But I think any measurable
>> activity should count.
>>
>> Julian
>>
>>
>>> On Sep 17, 2018, at 8:55 AM, sebb <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 17 September 2018 at 12:10, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>>> Maybe I am missing something here, but how would GitHub contributions
>> contribute to mentoring?
>>>>
>>>> Well I thought it wouldn't which is why I didn’t include it, but as
>> some projects use GitHub issues a lot, so some stuff tends to get discussed
>> there rather than on the dev list.
>>>
>>> "If it did not happen on a mailing list then it did not happen"
>>> If the GitHub issues are not being copied to the mailing lists, then
>>> again I don't see how that contributes to the mentoring process.
>>>
>>>> There’s a few other factors in this case, but I think it’s on it way to
>> being sorted. I'll bring it to the mentors attention and see what they
>> think. (Sorry for being obtuse, but this is a public list.)
>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> Justin
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