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Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean
Hi,

A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game but aimed at a different audience.)

Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.

I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.

BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might be interesting but probably a little invasive.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
said "No", it said "not quite right". That was a simple yes/no, and an
obvious "no" answer. ... That was the final straw after a series of
multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
missed some nuance. Not at all. When it said my "no" answer wasn't right...
Well.

The quiz logic seems broken.


On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on
> the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully
> understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me
> thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a
> little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell
> me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game
> but aimed at a different audience.)
>
> Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you
> may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers
> in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can
> expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas
> like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
>
> I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably
> need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
>
> BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong
> only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record
> of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might
> be interesting but probably a little invasive.
>
> Thanks,
> Justin
>
> 1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
> 2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
> 3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
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>
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean-3
Hi,

> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> said “No”

Some of them are subtle. You may have to check more than one box to get all the right answers.

For that question:
Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?

There are three answers:
    Yes for all bundled software.
    No (with a couple of exceptions).
    Yes but only for some common build tools.

And if you read [1] you see that two of those options are right. Depending on what was shown you may of had to tick one or two boxes.

> That was the final straw after a series of
> multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
> missed some nuance.

Double check the hints they give you clues and the links provided, but it’s certainly possible I have a couple of errors in there.

You can allways look at the JSON file.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#build-tools
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:31 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> > when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> > said “No”
>
> Some of them are subtle. You may have to check more than one box to get
> all the right answers.
>
> For that question:
> Can Apache distribute products under a prohibited ('Category X') license?
>
> There are three answers:
>

There were just two.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean-3
Hi,

> There were just two.

Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way it’s a little different every time.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > There were just two.
>
> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
> it’s a little different every time.
>

So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
answer, and it still dings me?

I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> > There were just two.
>>
>> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
>> it’s a little different every time.
>>
>
> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> answer, and it still dings me?
>
> I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
>

And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
a chance to vote."

That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes, and
it's done.

-g
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
"manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box unchecked,
and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.

Nobody puts stuff there. You "svn mv" the release from dev/$project/foo to
release/$project/foo, and our systems auto-update the www.a.o/dist area.

Misleading.


On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:37 PM, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:35 PM, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:34 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> > There were just two.
>>>
>>> Correct it shows two answers randomly out the 3 it knows about. That way
>>> it’s a little different every time.
>>>
>>
>> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
>> answer, and it still dings me?
>>
>> I call shenanigans. Gonna go get my broom.
>>
>
> And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
> use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
> a chance to vote."
>
> That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes,
> and it's done.
>
> -g
>
>
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

David Jencks-3
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”. Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X  software”: most of the projects I know about rely on Apache infra running Jira so it’s hard to call that an optional dependency of any kind. From the “explanations” of what we’re deemed my wrong answers I think the question was intended to be closer to “can an Apache project have a dependency on cat X software”.

For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.

David Jencks
Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 9:03 PM, Greg Stein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Every single question that I answered gave me a "not quite right". Even
> when it asked if an Apache product can be distributed under Cat-X and I
> said "No", it said "not quite right". That was a simple yes/no, and an
> obvious "no" answer. ... That was the final straw after a series of
> multiple-choice questions that I got "not quite right", thinking maybe I
> missed some nuance. Not at all. When it said my "no" answer wasn't right...
> Well.
>
> The quiz logic seems broken.
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 7:49 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> A while back I posted a little logo game. [1] Well after a few comments on
>> the incubator list around projects possibly graduating without fully
>> understanding ASF policy, and some issues with recent release got me
>> thinking is there another way we can present this information. So I made a
>> little multiple choice quiz on ASF policy. [2] Give it a try [3] and tell
>> me what you think. (It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game
>> but aimed at a different audience.)
>>
>> Currently it only has a dozen or so questions with some variation, so you
>> may get the same question asked but it’s likely to have different answers
>> in a different order. Anyway if people think this is useful perhaps we can
>> expand it with more questions and broaden the scope to include other areas
>> like the Apache Way, how the foundation works and the like.
>>
>> I may of made mistakes and it likely some words and sentences probably
>> need correcting. Proof readers and PRs welcome.
>>
>> BTW it doesn’t save your scores anywhere so if you get a question wrong
>> only you will know but hopefully you might learn something. Have a record
>> of number of people taking the quiz and results by incubating project might
>> be interesting but probably a little invasive.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Justin
>>
>> 1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos
>> 2. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz
>> 3. https://rawgit.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/master/compiled/index.html
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [hidden email]
>> For additional commands, e-mail: [hidden email]
>>
>>

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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean-3
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
Hi,

> So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> answer, and it still dings me?

Grep I don't know what two options it gave you from the 3 possible answers, 2 of them are right 1 isn’t. No is not the only correct answer.

Thanks,
Justin
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Mike Jumper
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:49 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> ... It’s probably harder and not as fun as the logo game ...
>
>
I'm not sure anything can as hard as the Apache Lucene question in the logo
game:

https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheLogos/blob/84a740914a7ea55c27875dbd83900a1c3c1d97a2/resources/logos-blur/lucene.jpg

;)

- Mike
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean-3
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:41 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > So you're saying that I answer "No" from the two chosen, the ONLY correct
> > answer, and it still dings me?
>
> Grep I don't know what two options it gave you from the 3 possible
> answers, 2 of them are right 1 isn’t. No is not the only correct answer.


I already explained: "Yes, Cat-x can be included" and "No, it cannot". The
answer is clear. The quiz said I was wrong. Not a chance, when it comes to
Cat-X. That is black and white. And if I didn't happen to check some
*absent* 3rd checkbox that wasn't displayed, then the quiz better not ding
me for answering according to what I was given.

-g
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean-3
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
Hi,

> And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got: "Releases
> use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone has
> a chance to vote."
>
> That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes, and
> it's done.

My understanding has always been that it needs more +1’s than -1’s as well. A -1 is not a veto but it still need more +1s than -1s. [1][2] That seem in line with the documentation.

Thanks,
Justin

1.https://www.apache.org/foundation/voting.html#ReleaseVotes
2. https://www.apache.org/foundation/glossary.html#MajorityApproval
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
Hi,

> "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box unchecked,
> and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.

There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check. I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.

Better still take a look at the JSON [1] and submit pull requests / raise some issues.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://github.com/justinmclean/ApacheQuiz/blob/master/src/quiz.json
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean-3
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:45 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > And as you suggested, the possibility of erroneous Q&A. I just got:
> "Releases
> > use majority approval voting (i.e at least 3 +1 votes and more +1 votes
> > than -1 votes) and the vote should to be open 72 hours so that everyone
> has
> > a chance to vote."
> >
> > That is false. A release cannot be voted against. You get (3) +1 votes,
> and
> > it's done.
>
> My understanding has always been that it needs more +1’s than -1’s as
> well. A -1 is not a veto but it still need more +1s than -1s. [1][2] That
> seem in line with the documentation.


Yeah, I was braindead. Right. No vetoes, but positive voting. My bad.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Greg Stein-4
In reply to this post by Justin Mclean
On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box
> unchecked,
> > and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
>
> There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say
> "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check.
> I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.
>

That's the right text. I just typed from memory.

Point holds.

No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd...
Nah.
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean
In reply to this post by David Jencks-3
Hi,

> I got inconsistent results from the same answer out of the same choices on the same question. It was not clear to me that many of the questions are “check all that apply”.

I will add that to make it clearer.

> Some of the questions are poorly worded, e.g. something like “can Apache rely on cat X  software”:

I used that wording as it is used in the legal resolved page. [1] “depend” or “rely on a dependancy” may be better words to use.

> For many of the questions I thought there was a mismatch between my understanding of Apache policy and any of the possible answers presented, and I ended up feeling vaguely insulted.

Sorry that was certainly not my intention.

Thanks,
Justin

1. https://www.apache.org/legal/resolved.html#optional
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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Daniel Gruno-2
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
On 01/25/2018 06:54 AM, Greg Stein wrote:

> On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 11:52 PM, Justin Mclean <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> "manually placed into www.apache.org/dist" ... I left that box
>> unchecked,
>>> and well... dang. I still got it wrong, it seems.
>>
>> There no question with that answer that I can see. There’s is one that say
>> "Place the artifacts in www.apache.org/dist.” which you do need to check.
>> I could replace “Place” with “svn mv” if you think that is more accurate.
>>
>
> That's the right text. I just typed from memory.
>
> Point holds.
>
> No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
> then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd...
> Nah.
>

I'm gonna add to this and say there can't be two correct answers in such
a quiz. Either the answer encompasses the full scope of the question, or
it's not the right answer if the aim is to teach people about our
policies and ways. Having one option in the cat-x question say "no, with
exceptions" and one say "yes, for release tools"...the former is still
the only correct answer and encompasses both pseudo-answers. The latter
omits several other allowed scenarios.

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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean
In reply to this post by Greg Stein-4
HI,

> No, I'm not gonna issue PRs. The methodology of presenting 2 of 3 answers,
> then saying I got it wrong because I couldn't click that not-shown 3rd…

It not doing that it only scores the check boxes on the screen.

Thanks,
Justin


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Re: Apache Policy Quiz

Justin Mclean-3
In reply to this post by Daniel Gruno-2
Hi,

> I'm gonna add to this and say there can't be two correct answers in such
> a quiz.

Have you tried many of the question to have multiple correct choices?  Perhaps this question / answer set just needs to be worded a little better.

> Either the answer encompasses the full scope of the question, or
> it's not the right answer if the aim is to teach people about our
> policies and ways. Having one option in the cat-x question say "no, with
> exceptions" and one say "yes, for release tools"...the former is still
> the only correct answer and encompasses both pseudo-answers. The latter
> omits several other allowed scenarios.

What are the other allowed scenarios? The only other one I can think of is if VP legal allows it (which I‘ve seen once).

Thanks,
Justin
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